MOVERS AND SHAKERS: EDITION 387

Claire Gehlig

Curriculum consultant, FE Associates

Start date: April 2022

Previous Job: Head of Apprenticeships, South Thames College

Interesting fact: Claire’s proudest personal achievement was completing a 26-mile hike from Brighton to Eastbourne to raise money for Macmillan

Sean Cosgrove

Chief Revenue Officer, Corndel

Start date: June 2022

Previous Job: Chief Commercial Officer, Lifetime Training

Interesting fact: Sean grew up in Australia and is an avid travel fan – the more interesting and obscure the destination, the better.

£11k canapés help guests swallow Zahawi’s climate strategy

The Department for Education spent more than £11,000 on canapés and booze for the launch event of its climate change strategy – but civil servants were barred from the buffet. 

Nadhim Zahawi launched his education sustainability vision – which included a new natural history GCSE – at the Natural History Museum on Thursday evening last week. 

Attendees included adventurer Bear Grylls and Doug Gurr, the museum’s director. While the museum waived its fee for hosting the event, the DfE had to cover catering for the 200 to 250 guests, a spokesperson said. 

Taste Studios, trading as “The Recipe”, was given a £11,480 contract to provide the food – about £46 a head. Taste describes itself as a “premium caterer” for “some of the largest and most prestigious events” in London. 

Canapés listed on its website include seared duck breast served on sweet potato polenta cake, decorated with comfit cherries. 

Or rolled wing of skate with summer truffle stuffing and crispy celeriac sticks. The government said it had to use a caterer from the museum’s list of accredited suppliers. 

Staff were “asked not to eat or drink [at] the event” as they were there for work and not as invitees. The Civil Service Code says officials must carry out their “fiduciary obligations responsibly”, making sure public money is used “properly and efficiently”. 

The launch “brought together individuals and organisations who can help us implement our strategy in order to galvanise support from them – whether through funding, resources, driving public support and awareness, or encouraging youth engagement”, said a spokesperson. 

The government has been on a money-saving mission in schools and colleges – sending in experts to help leaders cut costs. One adviser told a school in 2019 to limit lunch portions for pupils.

The college gender gap narrows, but slowly

Colleges are encouraging more men to work flexibly and are overhauling recruitment imagery to attract more women into better-paid teaching roles to try and tackle gender pay gaps. 

An analysis of gender pay data by FE Week shows the gap at most of England’s colleges is narrowing but that it will take 15 years to close completely at current rates of progress. 

While the gender pay gap has improved on average at most colleges, sector leaders have said the rate of change is too slow. 

Out of a sample of 147 colleges, the difference in median hourly pay between men and women went from 16 per cent in 2020/2021 to 15 per cent in 2021/2022. 

Catina Barrett, from the Women’s Leadership Network, told FE Week that colleges must not “just keep rolling the same approach” if the situation is to be improved. 

“It’s fair enough to say it may take several years to make a significant difference. But if you’re saying it will take several years and we do one percentage point a year, that is not good enough,” she said.

‘Disproportionate’ percentage of women in lower-paid part-time roles 

Out of FE Week’s sample of 147 colleges, Kendal College in the Lake District reported the highest gender pay gap for difference in hourly rate (median) at 60.4 per cent. 

When comparing median hourly wages, women at the college earned 39.6 pence for every £1 that men earned. Furness College in Cumbria had the second highest gap (36.6 per cent). 

Kendal College said the median figure for female staff is significantly lower due to the fact they have a higher proportionate number of female staff employed as classroom learning assistants, cafe assistants and cleaning assistants. 

They added that many of these roles are part-time contracts, and each employment is counted separately in the median comparison. 

“Part of the pay gap issue we face is that we have made many roles increasingly family friendly and flexible which has attracted a disproportionate percentage of women into the lower-paid part-time roles which fit around other commitments,” Kendal’s principal Kelvin Nash told FE Week. 

“The dominance of women in these roles is, from our analysis, due to the unequal shares of caring work in the home done by men and women, resulting in women doing more part-time work, which in comparison with full-time jobs have a lower hourly median pay.” 

Nash told FE Week the college is taking the “positive steps” required to change the imbalance, such as proactively advertising vacancies for women in higher paid roles, such as management, science, engineering and construction. 

Furness College, where women earned 63.4 pence for every pound earned by men, said its lowest quartile is primarily made up of cleaning and catering staff, roles that many organisations outsource and therefore do not include in their gender pay gap reporting.

These roles at Furness are currently 84 per cent female-staffed, and “this is primarily the reason for our gender pay gap, which we are working hard to address”. 

The college added that outsourcing their cleaning and catering staff would bring the college’s gender pay gap under national and sector benchmarks. 

“Lots of colleges find that median and mean isn’t very helpful to them,” Catina Barrett told FE Week. 

“So, they all blame childcare, women wanting to work part time, women only wanting to work term time, those kinds of things. 

“If there’s an issue, it is about how they’re organising part-time working, and then they’re running a whole raft of vacancies. They need to look at that practice, not on what’s wrong with the data reporting… because other organisations will equally have a workforce that has women in it, and they don’t say that it’s distorted in the same way.” 

Tackling the gap 

Kendal College said it has made it easier for men to opt for part-time and flexible roles, in a bid to tackle the gender pay gap. 

“Opening up traditionally male roles within the college to flexible working has encouraged more women to work in them, and in turn, more men to switch to part time,” said Nash. 

“This is working, in that we have in place, for example, part-time female managers building careers around other responsibilities, and a growing number of males in part-time and lower-paid jobs.” 

Kendal College has also introduced a pay award for 2021/22 that they claim has reduced the differential. 

All staff on minimum wage were paid a six per cent increase, with other staff receiving a three per cent increase. As the majority of staff on minimum wage are women, the pay increase of six per cent helped close the gender pay gap. 

Hartlepool College, who had the joint third highest gender pay gap in FE Week’s sample, along with West Nottinghamshire College, at 35 per cent, said it is doing all it can to recruit and select females into teaching roles, especially in construction and engineering. 

“In addition, in recent years extra pay has gone to those performing valuable roles on lower pay scales,” a spokesperson told FE Week. 

Fluctuation in the gap 

Government data showed significant fluctuation in the gender pay gap at some colleges. 

FE Week analysis found that 73 colleges were able to close their gender pay gap between 2020/2021 and 2021/2022. 

However, 59 colleges saw their gender pay gap increase. There was no change at 15 colleges. 

The largest increases seen were at Bath College – where the difference in median hourly pay went from 3.9 per cent in 2020/2021 to a gap of 15.1 per cent in 2021/2022. 

And Stoke on Trent College, which had no gender pay gap in 2020/2021, had a gap of nine per cent in 2021/2022. 

FE Week contacted both colleges for comment but did not get a response. 

By contrast, NCG told FE Week that their gender pay gap reduced from 42.9 per cent to 13.3 per cent and has reduced by a further 1.2 percentage point in the last reporting period to 12.1 per cent, although this data differs from what is on the government’s gender pay gap website. 

Joe McGraw, director of people and development at NCG, told FE Week that over the past two years the organisation has reduced its gender pay gap by implementing a number of “positive changes”, including a commitment to paying the living wage to all their colleagues.

“We are continuing to standardise our pay structure and criteria for pay progression from entry point to career progression and implement a role-profiling system to develop an equitable salary and benefit structure,” he said. 

“As part of this, we undertake a continuous equal pay audit to ensure our pay system delivers equal pay across like-for-like roles regardless of gender.”

How to do lesson observations that don’t scare everyone

Employers keeping score stops lesson observations from being a real development opportunity, writes Neil Jones

Lesson observation at our college used to be regarded as an annual hurdle to jump. For less confident teachers (and I mean confidence here in the context of doing their job whilst having someone observing and judging their work) it could be a source of great anxiety.

Every department had a week when the observation team would observe one lesson for each teacher and everyone knew that these observations would be graded: from the hallowed and rarely achieved grade 1, to the dreaded and rarely awarded grade 4.

Most people would acquire a grade 2 if the lesson had generally gone well, or a grade 3 if it hadn’t gone quite so well. Not much was learnt about teaching in the process. 

With the arrival of a new senior management team from 2015, we reviewed this process and changed it to something more developmentally focused. We knew people’s attitudes wouldn’t change instantly; it would be a gradual change of culture over two or three years.

We stopped grading any observations and announced that the process was to be entirely focused on a developmental conversation about the complex craft of teaching. We wanted to break down the psychological barriers that prevented teachers from seeing lesson observation as a positive opportunity.

I don’t mean to make light of these barriers. If you know that your employer keeps a list of your scores each year in an annual one-off test of your abilities, it’s no surprise that you would see this as a threat rather than an opportunity.

After three years, we could see that things had definitely opened up. We had also invested in some self-observation equipment and a few course teams were now embracing the opportunity to record themselves and share clips with each other on a chosen aspect of pedagogy for their subject.

After three years, we could see things had opened up

I attended a chemistry staff team meeting where they discussed their observations about how team members were teaching practical experiments. The room was abuzz with positive thinking: the developmental ethos was thriving.

Then came Covid and the lockdowns. In the space of a few weeks, we moved to a new version of teaching and learning delivered remotely via Microsoft Teams. The technology seemed so ready for the needs of the situation ̶ we just needed to be ready to use that technology!

As everyone embarked upon a crash course in digital teaching and learning, performed live to their students’ screens, we quickly realised that people were evaluating, sharing and developing their craft on an almost daily basis.

Lesson observation week was one thing we therefore removed from the annual calendar to lessen the list of tasks for teachers and heads of department.

Now that we are tentatively breathing post-lockdown air, and everyone is getting back to working ‘normally’, we have reinstated lesson observation. We have returned to the menu of choices for departments: self-observations using Teams, paired observations in courses, across courses in departments, or across different departments.

It’s a mark of how much people now view lesson observation as a positive opportunity to develop our craft that four different departments have gone straight to observing in completely different subject areas.

As people are freed up from concerns with subject specific knowledge, they find they can concentrate on all the minute moments of finely crafted communication that construct an exciting and challenging learning experience for 22 diverse students.

We know that Ofsted will visit soon and we have heard that they may ask how any of this assists us with quality assurance at the college.

Our answer is that we achieve that assurance through the processes that record our developmental culture.

We know that our colleagues want to develop themselves as teachers. We expect that they record any ideas they have had from observing or being observed in their end-of-year review with their line-manager. These in turn will be gathered together into their department’s action plan for the following year.

So the process is indeed tracked from a management perspective.

But its foundation stone is the understanding that hard-working colleagues want to develop themselves and their craft in one of the most difficult and rewarding jobs in the world.

Ofsted 5-year strategy Q&A with Paul Joyce

Ofsted last week unveiled a new five-year strategy with two key areas of focus for FE: to review that it has the right inspection model given the “complexity and diversity” of the sector, and to assess all colleges on how well they meet local skills needs. 

So what changes can providers expect to see when Ofsted comes knocking? FE Week sat down with the watchdog’s deputy director for FE and skills Paul Joyce to find out. 

  

Q. How will inspections differ when Ofsted assesses how well colleges meet skills needs? 

A. This is something that we’ve been asked to do by the Department for Education to support the reforms detailed in the skills bill. 

So from September, we will be conducting enhanced inspections of colleges. That’s going to involve inspectors evaluating the contribution the college makes to meeting skills needs. This is an extension to inspection activities already undertaken by the education inspection framework (EIF), rather than something completely new. 

Inspectors are going to spend more time examining a wider range of evidence to see how well leaders and managers engage with key stakeholders and establish skills needs, and the actions they then take with their curriculum. 

  

Q. What new evidence will inspectors look at, and will this result in a separate judgment in reports? 

A. Expectations will increase over time. You’ll be aware of things like local skills improvement plans (LSIPs) and accountability agreements that are mentioned in the skills bill. So we will be using things like that. And we will be speaking with a wider range of stakeholders to see how well the college meets with, talks to, understands local skills needs, and importantly, what they do to adapt their curriculum or working collaboration with other providers to address those identified skills needs. 

All college inspections from September will be full inspections and we will be increasing the number of inspectors that go to those colleges by an additional two inspectors. 

The skills need judgment won’t be a main EIF judgment. We will be making a worded judgment within the inspection report, and there will be a section in the report about how well the college does meet skills needs. But it won’t result in a separate report or grade. 

  

Q. Why will independent training providers not receive skills needs assessments? 

A. We’ve been asked to do this by the DfE because of the skills bill. And in the skills bill, this duty for a college to meet skills needs, the duty and legislation does only apply to colleges, sixth-form colleges and specialist designated institutions. So the duty in law does not apply to independent training providers, for example. Whether it will in the future or not is something for the government to consider. 

  

Q. Are Ofsted inspectors best placed to judge whether a college is meeting the skills needs of the economy? Do they have the expertise? 

A. That is a good point and it’s why we’ve been involved in discussions about how we do this with DfE for quite a while, and why we’ve run a number of pilots. 

You are quite right to say inspectors are not economists, and it is extremely unlikely that a single college will meet all of the skills needs of an area. So we’ve been very clear to the DfE in terms of what it is possible to do through inspection and what it isn’t possible to do through inspection. 

Through our piloting, the judgment that we will actually make is not whether the college is or is not meeting skills needs, but we can make a judgment about how well college leaders and managers are engaging with key stakeholders to try and understand what skills needs there are. And as a result of whatever they identify, what it is they are doing to address those skills needs. 

So that’s a slightly different way of coming about it, rather than an inspector determining what the skills needs are, which we’re not able to do. What we’re looking at doing is finding out how well leaders and managers talk to people, whether they’re talking to the right stakeholders, and what they’re doing based on the information they receive, and obviously inspection and inspectors are able to do that. 

  

Q. Ofsted’s strategy also said the watchdog will review whether it has the right model of inspection, given the “complexity and diversity of provision” in FE, and the size of some providers. FE’s complexity and diversity has been well known for years. What has changed recently for Ofsted to realise it might need to adapt its inspection model to reflect this? 

A. You’re right  ̶  FE has always been diverse and complex. But with the skills bill, the various qualification reforms, other things that are happening, we need to make sure our inspection model keeps pace with that. 

With policies like T Levels, skills bootcamps, higher technical qualifications ̶ they’ve all been relatively recent additions to the landscape since the introduction of the EIF. This review is just to make sure that our inspection practice and reporting does keep pace with the changes. 

  

Q. What changes are on the table? 

A. The main commitment here is to review what we do, how we do it and how we report on it. That’s not to say that anything will change. I’ve got no fixed views of what needs to change. For me, this is about will it be helpful and useful to write specific things about T Levels and skills bootcamps, for example, rather than write as we do now about education programmes for young people. 

  

Q. Campus-level inspections for large college groups have been on the cards for years – could this be introduced as part of this review? 

A. Certainly, as part of the review, a look at how we inspect and report multi-sited provision will be part of that. I wouldn’t want to commit now to say that we are going to report on individual campuses. We’ll certainly want to explore whether that is something we ought to be doing. 

The campus-level inspection argument really has evolved somewhat since it was first mentioned because of devolution and moves to greater local accountability. We want to make sure that however we inspect, or however we report, is the best for the user group. Whether that’s campus-level or a different response, it’s yet to be determined. 

  

Q. The strategy is silent on areas that were thought to be priorities for the inspectorate, such as apprenticeships and prison education. Why? 

A. If we were to list everything that we are going to do within the strategy, it would be a very, very long document. I assure you that whilst we specifically mentioned skills needs, apprenticeships, for example, prison education, for example, are key topics. They are woven through the different priorities in our strategy, although they may well not be mentioned by name. But there’s no deliberate omission. 

College and ITP teachers will be in scope for lifetime bans, DfE confirms

Teachers in further education colleges and independent training providers will be in scope for lifetime bans for serious misconduct under government plans to expand teacher misconduct regulations. 

The Department for Education has confirmed that the Teacher Regulation Agency (TRA) will have its powers extended to post-16 education and training “when a suitable legislative opportunity becomes available”.

Thousands of post-16 teachers, assessors, tutors and lecturers will be in scope of the regulations, which currently only apply to teachers in schools, academies, sixth form colleges and certain forms of youth accommodation and children’s homes.

The DfE launched a consultation on the extension in February and has today confirmed its decisions. 

The department said it was making these changes to bring the teacher misconduct rules in line with the updated ‘keeping children safe in education’ guidelines which now have requirements for a broader range of education settings. 

In its response to the consultation, DfE reports that extending the “teacher misconduct regime” to further education and post-16 providers was supported by 86 per cent of those that responded.

The broadened remit for the TRA would “reduce the risk of a prohibited person trying to work between [pre-and post-16] sectors” the response says.

FE colleges, special post-16 institutions and independent training providers will have a legal duty to decide whether to refer cases of “serious misconduct” for the TRA to investigate.

Only cases of serious misconduct can be referred to the TRA. This is broadly defined as “unacceptable professional conduct”, “conduct that may bring the profession into disrepute” or “conviction, at any time, of a relevant offence”. TRA guidance documents go in to these in more detail to aid employers.

Once the TRA receives a referral, a professional conduct panel is formed which makes a recommendation on whether or not to issue a prohibition order. This would ban the individual from carrying out teaching work, usually for life. Their name would also appear on the “prohibited list” for employers, local authorities and teacher supply agencies to be able to check. 

Outcomes of the TRA’s misconduct panels are made public, even when no prohibition order is made.

Recent cases that have resulted in prohibition orders include a school vice principal in Hull who was banned following a conviction for indecent assault on a boy under 16 

A school health and social care teacher received a prohibition order last month having been found to have fabricated students’ assessments and submitted false grades to OCR.

Sector organisations, unions and individuals had just under six weeks to support or oppose the department’s plans. Included in the list of published respondents are several schools and academies, Ofsted, the Education and Training Foundation and several independent training providers.

South-west triumphs as AoC Sport National Championships returns after 2-year absence

The south-west stormed to victory at the AoC Sport National Championships last weekend, unseating the previous winner of four years. 

The region took the Wilkinson Sword trophy from the south-east at the 42nd national championships, held in Nottingham. 

After a two-year hiatus due to the Covid-19 pandemic, staff and visitors came to celebrate the opening of the championship at an open-air cinema, where they heard from English professional rugby union player Joe Marchant, who offered his congratulations to all the students. 

Throughout the championships more than 1,500 students from 91 colleges took part in 12 different sports at the University of Nottingham, Nottingham Trent University and Willow Sports Centre, Derby. 

“It goes without saying that the past two years have been extremely difficult for everyone and especially young people,” said AoC Sport director of sport and student experience Dean Hardman. 

“We were therefore delighted to see the return of the AoC Sport National Championships for the first time since 2019 and the much-needed opportunity for our talented athletes from across the country to compete against each other at this fantastic event.” 

After an “intense competition”, the south-west region were crowned Wilkinson Sword winners, with a total of 140 points. 

This is the first time the region has won the title since 2016. The previous champions of four years were the southeast, who this year came in third place, losing out to Yorkshire and Humber for the runner-up spot. 

During the event, over 70 student volunteers and match officials ensured that the competitions ran smoothly, while sports therapy students from Moulton College provided “pop up clinics” as well as pitch-side management and injury assessment and advice. 

Students from Exeter College won the netball and women’s rugby for the southwest. Chris Wall, sport academy manager at Exeter College, told FE Week about the emotional highs that came with the win. 

“There were tears from the coaches. It’s great to see the joy in the faces of the students.

“Having two years of not having much sport at all, not having national champs, to be able to have sport now pretty much back to normal, you appreciate what you didn’t have.” 

Wall spoke of the pride he felt after his team achieved gold. 

“They all showed great determination, great durability – the nature of the tournament is you play over two days,” he said.

“You can have all sorts of knocks, you’re going to get some bruises, particularly in rugby. And those people who come out and get gold are the people who are able to cope best and be able to perform in every game to a good standard.”

However, he noted that some students missed out because of Covid – something he called a “huge shame… I guess we are appreciating a little bit more what we do have in competitive sport through AoC and that platform,” he added. 

The championships were sponsored by the RAF, who were present throughout the weekend, and kit suppliers Serious Sport and UCFB.

Missed opportunity: flagship edtech scheme ends after 2 years

The government will scrap its flagship edtech demonstrator programme after just over two years, claiming it is no longer needed as schools and colleges reopen after Covid closures. 

The Department for Education told FE Week the programme would end after the summer term. 

It was a key plank of the government’s 2019 edtech strategy, but was later repurposed to focus on Covid and education recovery. 

Under the scheme, schools, colleges and academy trusts were appointed as “demonstrators” and funded with up to £200,000 to help other institutions harness education technology. 

Initially run by the London Grid for Learning and Education Foundation, the £850,000 contract for the second phase was controversially handed to the United Church Schools Trust (UCST), the sponsor of United Learning, England’s largest academy trust. 

Ministers recently extended the contract to July, but schools and colleges have now been told it will not be funded beyond the end of this academic year. 

A DfE spokesperson said the programme had “provided important support during the pandemic, helping bridge the gap from crisis response to supporting long term use of technology”. 

“We will be ending the programme after the summer term as schools [and colleges] have returned to in-person teaching, but we will continue to work with the sector to build on education staff’s existing digital skills.” 

James Garnett, the director of IT at United Learning, told the Schools and Academies Show this week there would still be support through other non-government schemes, but urged schools and colleges to “make use of the programme” before the end of term. 

But one demonstrator warned that scrapping the programme represented a “missed opportunity”. 

The leader, who did not want to be named, said the scheme’s launch had marked a “long overdue renaissance at the DfE around the potential of technology and its role in education”. 

“To see the programme end after only two years is very disappointing and represents, for me, the wider missed opportunity and lack of vision we’re again seeing at the DfE about how technology could be enhancing schools and colleges.” 

Initially launched with just 20 demonstrator schools and colleges in April 2020, the programme grew quickly, and by the end of its first year involved 48 demonstrators. 

Four schools and a college  backed out at the start of phase two, leaving 43 demonstrators working with UCST. 

However, only 27 have been asked to stay on until July this year. The government also recently announced funding allocations to cover the final four months of the scheme. 

Originally, £5.5 million was shared between demonstrators in the second phase, with grants ranging from £10,000 to £200,000. Between now and July, grants for the remaining 27 schools will range from £5,000 to £60,000. 

Ty Goddard, the chair of EdTech UK and co-founder of the Education Foundation, said the programme had become a “major response to the needs of England’s schools and colleges in early 2020, supporting thousands of institutions and staff teams”. 

He paid tribute to the demonstrator schools and trusts, which he said were “not only running their own schools and colleges but were part of this educator-led pandemic response”. 

The DfE “deserves credit” for investing in the original scheme, he said.

St John Ambulance faces apprentice recruitment suspension

The country’s best-known first aid training charity is facing a suspension on apprentice recruitment after Ofsted found “insufficient” teaching. 

Formed 135 years ago, St John Ambulance describes itself as “the nation’s leading first aid training provider”. 

The charity was accepted onto the register of apprenticeship training providers in November 2020 and started its delivery of apprenticeships in March 2021. 

However, during its new-provider monitoring visit, Ofsted found that leaders had made ‘insufficient progress’ to ensure SJA was meeting all the requirements of successful apprenticeship provision. 

According to inspectors, leaders and managers failed to make sure apprentices were benefiting from high-quality training that led to positive outcomes. 

“Leaders and managers have been too slow to implement the curriculum effectively,” the report said. 

“They do not ensure that the requirements of an apprenticeship are met. Inspectors identified that not all apprentices were given time away from their job roles to be able to complete their off-the-job training.” 

Ofsted said that SJA did not ensure there were sufficient staff resources to support the delivery of the apprenticeship programmes when recruiting apprentices. 

“Consequently, most apprentices have not been able to make sufficient progress in all the components of the apprenticeship programme,” inspectors said. 

At the time of Ofsted’s visit, there were 60 apprentices in learning, all on standards based programmes. 

Of these 60 there were 34 apprentices on the level 4 assessor/coach programme all employed by SJA. 

There were 17 apprentices on the level 3 lead adult care worker programme and eight apprentices on the level 2 adult care worker programme. 

Inspectors found that apprentices who were nearing completion of their apprenticeship programme were not adequately prepared for their functional skills exams. 

And apprentices on adult care programmes had to wait for several months into their apprenticeship before the appointment of their skills coach. 

Other issues identified were that skills coaches did not work with employers to plan effective on- and off-the-job training. 

“Not all apprentices on adult care programmes receive the time to complete off-the-job training. This means that leaders are not meeting the principles and requirements of an apprenticeship,” Ofsted said. 

St John Ambulance’s head of education and training products, Andrew New, said: “We are taking on board Ofsted’s monitoring report and will address the points raised.” 

New told FE Week that learner experience is always their “top priority” and feedback from the monitoring visit prompted them to take action immediately, to ensure apprentices received the support they needed. 

This support included transferring some apprentices to another provider. 

“Starting this new strand of work during the pandemic has proved to be challenging, but we will learn from this feedback and any future apprenticeship provision through St John will meet the high standards people rightly expect from our training,” New added.