Apprentice minimum wage cheat among those ‘named and shamed’

At least one apprentice employer was among the first batch to be “named and shamed” as the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) gets tough on national minimum wage offenders.

Peter Oakes, of Peter Oakes Ltd, Macclesfield; Lisa Maria Cathcart, of Salon Sienna, Manchester; Mohammed Yamin, of Minto Guest House, Edinburgh; Anne Henderson, of Chambers Hairdressers, Middlesbrough; and Ruzi Ruzyyev, a car wash operator in Carmarthen, South Wales, were all said to have underpaid.

A BIS spokesperson said Mr Oakes neglected to pay £3619.70 to two workers, Ms Cathcart neglected to pay £1760.48 to one worker, Mr Yamin neglected to pay £808.56 to one employee and Ms Henderson and Mr Ruzyyev neglected to pay £452.22 and £225.38, respectively, to one worker each.

However, it was not disclosed which had offended over apprentice pay, which is legally at least £2.68 an-hour.

The BIS spokesperson said: “We do not disclose information on the identity or status of the workers.”

She added that the five cases had been “thoroughly investigated by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs”.

It comes just weeks after the Low Pay Commission recommended that the apprentice minimum wage should go up 5p from October. A BIS spokesperson said the recommendation would be considered.

Keeping an apprenticeship culture change in sight

A busy year for apprenticeships shows no sign of letting up with reform proposals expected to come to fruition, explains Matthew Hancock, skills minister. 

Across the country, our culture is changing, with more people recognising the long overlooked value of technical skills, and just how valuable apprenticeships are.

This will be another exciting year for skills and apprenticeships and I am committed to continuing our hard work to reform the skills system so it meets the needs of both learners and employers.’

Apprenticeships deliver work for young people and adults, giving apprentices the chance to earn while they learn in a real job, gaining a real qualification and a real future.

Since becoming skills minister, I have said that I want the new norm to be for young people to either choose to go to university or begin an apprenticeship. This is starting to become a reality.

Research shows that one-in-five of the top 100 apprenticeship employers have a former apprentice on their board.

This highlights the contribution that an apprentice can make to an organisation and the value of apprenticeships to individual’s career progression. It’s something we continue to build on.

We have seen the introduction of higher apprenticeships in new areas such as law, space engineering and even spies, with MI5 and MI6 offering roles for the right candidates.

Equivalent to degrees, more of these specialised and highly-skilled apprenticeships are being offered each year, giving individuals the chance to continue their professional development and fully realise their potential.

We want all apprenticeships to meet the needs of the learner, with training that is high quality and rigorous, and responsive to the needs of their employer. When firms decide to take on an apprentice, it’s vitally important they can see the benefits to their business.

That’s why I launched the apprenticeship trailblazers. This programme allows employers in key sectors, including automotive and aerospace, finance and professional services, to shape the training and qualifications made available to potential apprentices.

This will ensure that apprentices will develop the skills and gain the knowledge to succeed in their chosen career path. This year I am looking forward to announcing the initial results from the first phase of trailblazers as well as the sectors that will be involved in the next phase.

For those young people who are not quite ready for an apprenticeship, the new traineeships programme is an ideal option.

Traineeships unlock the great potential of young people and prepare them for their future careers by helping them to become ‘work ready’. They provide the essential work preparation training, maths and English and work experience needed to get an apprenticeship or other job.

More than 150 employers are now behind traineeships, helping to unlock the potential of young people. I am also urging yet more employers to help 16 to 23-year-olds gain the vital work experience needed.

During National Apprenticeship Week, there will be more than 500 events taking place across the country, involving apprentices, employers and training providers. I am looking forward to taking part in some of the visits myself and meeting the people that are benefitting from apprenticeships.

During the week, we are also encouraging employers to visit the National Apprenticeship Service (NAS) website — apprenticeships.org.uk — and pledge the number of apprenticeship places they plan to offer within their business.

At the end of the week we’ll be able to announce how many employers have come forward and how many places will be available across the wide range of sectors for prospective apprentices.

This will be another exciting year for skills and apprenticeships and I am committed to continuing our hard work to reform the skills system so it meets the needs of both learners and employers.

I want to see high quality vocational educational and apprenticeships deliver for the economy, for employers and for learners and apprentices themselves.

We are building a highly-skilled workforce across a range of industry sectors. This will help grow the UK economy and us to compete, and most importantly, give thousands of
young people the chance to reach their potential.

 

National Apprenticeship Week supplement
National Apprenticeship Week supplement

Promoting the job done on apprenticeships and examining what’s next

The National Audit Office has laid out the economic benefit underpinning investment in apprenticeships, says Gordon Birtwistle, Liberal Democrat apprentice champion, who explains what the Coalition has been doing to boost their popularity and rigour — and also what still needs to be done.

As the government apprenticeship ambassador to business, my job is to advocate and promote apprenticeships to businesses, young people and schools across the country; working closely with both the National Apprenticeship Service and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.

The Coalition is committed to creating more apprenticeship placements than ever before and enabling young people to see apprenticeships as a valid and worthwhile next step after school.

Over the past year I have been visiting a range of schools, training providers, businesses including small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) and apprentices to hear from a range of people and to establish how the government can improve apprenticeships.

Since 2010, Liberal Democrats in government have helped to create 1.6m new apprenticeship starts — more than double the number under Labour. As a party, we are extremely dedicated to keep the number of apprenticeships growing.

Apprenticeships are vitally important to the UK’s continued economic recovery.

For the UK to compete in the future, we need a highly skilled workforce. The National Audit Office has estimated that for every £1 spent on apprenticeships the wider economy benefits by £18.

The government is supporting businesses to ensure that apprenticeships are of the highest quality possible.

We have introduced new rules requiring an apprenticeship to last a minimum of 12 months. At the same time we are supporting the training of apprenticeships. We will cover 100 per cent of training costs for apprentices aged 16 to 18 and 50 per cent of the costs of those aged 19 to 24.

The government is also encouraging new businesses to take on apprentices. Companies employing more than 1,000 staff can receive grants of up to £1,500 to help support apprentices, in addition to training costs, if they have not taken on apprentices before.

There is an aging workforce across UK manufacturing — particularly in my
local area of Lancashire. We need young people to be trained up to ensure the knowledge and experience of the current workforce are not lost and can be passed along to the next generation creating a knowledge transfer network that will be retained.

It’s clear that SMEs also need to be able to access cheap finance to ensure capital investment is achieved and they need to be made aware of and understand financial markets, in particular the banking industry.

The government needs to ensure that the tax and regulatory systems are easy to understand and provide incentives to ensure SME companies expand and do so with apprentices.

I am confident the majority of SMEs in the UK are well-managed, visionary and see their role in delivering our future’s economy. They are hugely important to
our country and the road to economic recovery.

The government is also working to make sure there is better recognition of apprentices. Part of National Apprenticeship Week will focus on increasing awareness, understanding and demand for apprenticeships, as well as celebrating the achievements of apprentices.

Over the past month, I have had positive responses to apprenticeships and am starting to see a slight shift in attitude towards them. However there is plenty more to be done, especially in schools and on careers advice. We must engage young people and make them aware of the opportunities out there, eliminating this stigma of failure for not opting for the ‘normal’ university route.

Apprenticeships are fantastic alternatives which guarantee skills for life and employment too.

National Apprenticeship Week supplement
National Apprenticeship Week supplement

The three ‘big problems’ facing apprenticeships

Government action on the apprenticeship programme isn’t doing enough to address the UK skills gap, says Liam Byrne, shadow skills minister.

For three years, Britain has been trapped in an economy where wages have grown slowly, and prices have grown fast. Long-term unemployment is up. Youth unemployment is above 900,000. Yet all over Britain firms say they can’t get the skills they need.

We need real action to grow new jobs with better wages, not just to the lucky few but to all. This is why we need to grow the apprenticeship programme, but instead the government is shrinking it.

Today, our apprenticeship system faces three big problems.

First off, there just aren’t enough apprenticeships to go round. When it is harder to get an apprenticeship with Jaguar Land Rover than it is to get into an Oxford college, then we need more.

England has relatively low levels of apprenticeships compared with some of our main competitors. Australia, Austria, Germany and Switzerland all have between three to four times more apprentices as England.

But the overall number of apprenticeship starts has fallen on the year.

We now have fewer young people starting an apprenticeship than at the time of the last election.

Just to help, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) has bungled its most recent figures — these show that apprenticeship starts have fallen by more than 40,000, but BIS has admitted that the figures aren’t reliable because of data collection issues.

The government just can’t afford to be letting down our young people at a time when so many are out of work.

Second, the apprenticeship brand has been badly tarnished under David Cameron. We’ve seen in-work training rebadged as apprenticeships and a spike in the numbers of apprenticeships of short duration and of poor quality.

More than half of the increase in apprenticeships between 2010 and 2012 was in level two apprenticeships. One-in-five apprenticeships lasts for less than six months; and, according to the government’s own research, one-in-five apprentices report receiving neither on nor off the job training as part of their apprenticeship. And a shocking 29 per cent receive less pay than they are legally entitled to.

Third, employers — particularly small businesses — find the apprenticeship system mind-blowingly complicated. According to the CBI/Pearson Education and Skills Survey, 41 per cent of employers say they would become more involved in the apprenticeship programme if qualifications were more relevant to business needs. Just under a third of employers say that reductions in bureaucracy would encourage them to get more involved. The key issue is that small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) are creating jobs five times faster than big business — but only a quarter of these firms offer apprenticeships.

Labour’s Skills Taskforce recommended that doubling the number of apprenticeship offered by employers should be a national mission. That needs to involve establishing a ‘something-for-something’ deal with employers — offering employer-led sector bodies more control over skills funding and standards, provided they create more high quality apprenticeships in their sectors and supply chains.

The government’s current pilots for entirely employer-led design run the risk of leading to narrow training that meets the needs of employers but isn’t transferable; sector bodies are likely to ensure qualifications are transferable.

We also need to re-establish apprenticeships as gold-standard qualifications. This means working towards a situation where all apprenticeships are at level three or above, and last for a minimum of two years, with at least a day week of off-the-job training.

But we won’t stop there. We need an ‘earn while you learn’ revolution. That means exploring radical ideas now being tested by pioneering councils throughout the country.

In Manchester, training providers have launched a UCAS-style early application system for apprenticeships.

In Leeds, the council and Leeds College have set up an Apprenticeship Agency, designed to tackle SMEs’ reluctance to take on the risk of hiring an apprentice. Others are telling us about ideas to build new strong links between apprenticeships and university degrees. The competitiveness of our economy depends on ideas like this.

National Apprenticeship Week supplement
National Apprenticeship Week supplement

 

Apprenticeship reforms represent a ‘seismic change’ for businesses

Simple, structured and supported — three key characteristics that must define moves toward apprenticeship funding being routed directly to businesses, says Neil Carberry, director for employment and skills policy, Confederation of British Industry.

Now that things are looking up for the economy, investment in apprenticeships is crucial.

As the recent results of a UK Commission for Employment & Skills survey show, the flipside of growth is an escalating skills gaps and shortages — the survey found that skills shortage vacancies had doubled since 2009.

Encouraging more firms to benefit from apprenticeships will be a vital part of tackling this skills crunch, in part because of the particular combination of training they deliver.

And by allowing people to take their first steps on the career ladder and for others to move up it, more apprenticeships will help us move towards growth that benefits everyone after a prolonged squeeze.

Many businesses have already invested in delivering high quality apprenticeships and many more could be, including smaller firms, with the right balance of simplicity and relevance.

That’s why the apprenticeships reforms are such an important opportunity — we have the chance to establish a truly demand-led apprenticeship system that works for firms of all sizes.

There is some great work going on out there — the five per cent club, made up of some of the UK’s biggest employers, is focused on industry playing an active part in addressing youth unemployment and the chronic skills shortage we face.

Its members are companies who have signed up to five per cent of their UK workforce being young people on structured training schemes over the next five years, which includes apprenticeships.

The trailblazer pilots also demonstrate firms’ willingness to play their role in this change.

Road-testing the reforms like this is the only way to find the speed bumps and level them out.

One of these is to find ways for time-poor smaller firms to genuinely feed into and shape frameworks.

Another is some hand-holding for firms who are less familiar with training systems — whether that be shared learning from other trailblazers, or from industry or sector bodies.

In both of these areas, businesses recognise that they have a responsibility towards their wider sectors and supply chains.

Routing more funding through employers to send a clearer market signal of the kinds of provision that firms value is a proposition we’re right behind.

There are undoubtedly some significant hurdles to overcome, and we have set a number of key tests for any new system.

First of all it must be simple. The government must reduce, not increase the complexity for firms taking on apprentices.

Any transfer to the new system must be carefully phased and piloted, with firms given the option to retain arrangements that work over the change period and providers given the time needed to adapt.

A key part of this is coming up with a solution on how to support smaller firms to play their part. Finally, the government must retain the current level of support for the apprenticeship programme: the proposed reforms must be an opportunity to spend smarter, not reduce overall levels of government support for the apprenticeship programme.

None of these changes can stand in isolation. New apprenticeship frameworks and funding arrangements must sit within a wider skills ecosystem that supports the new leadership role for business.

For example, I envision a strong role for collaboration, including providers, to guide and enable smaller firms to engage meaningfully with the skills system. One way to achieve this is through seed funding for clusters of skills provision — locally, sectorally and within supply chains.

I’m in no doubt that we have to seize the opportunity the current reforms present us with. It represents a seismic change for businesses — but if we can implement a demand-led skills system, the potential prize is huge.

National Apprenticeship Week supplement
National Apprenticeship Week supplement

Celebrate apprentices with better pay and more respect

While National Apprenticeship Week rightly celebrates the programme, we shouldn’t forget the problems those on it face, says Joe Vinson, vice president, further education, National Union of Students.

National Apprenticeship Week is dedicated to the thousands of apprentices across the UK and it is a celebration of the positive impact they have on individuals, businesses and the wider economy.

Apprenticeships are fantastic for businesses, personal careers and creating opportunities for both employers and apprentices, but unfortunately the fact is that vocational study and apprenticeships often aren’t viewed with the same esteem as other routes of education.

This is evident right from the start of the study leaver’s journey, from the sheer lack of information, advice and guidance in schools, universities and colleges.

It should be shaped in collaboration with the learners themselves, but at the moment the information and advice available to students is patchy and often not very good.

Research from the National Union of Students last year showed that more than 50 per cent of university students were reported as being unaware of the apprenticeship opportunities available to them.

We’ve even found that some students have been told that they are “too clever” to think about going down this route.

How can learners begin to shape their own destiny without a guarantee of impartial careers advice?

More needs to be done to ensure that apprenticeships are valued and promoted as much as the other choices available to students.

Especially because with many not being able to afford tuition fees for university, other career options are looking more enticing.

Our own research, however, has showed that the apprenticeship minimum wage — a measly £2.68 per hour — could be a major deterrent for those who would otherwise consider apprenticeships.

The government’s own evidence last year showed a fifth of apprentices were paid below even that pathetic wage.

Research from the Equality and Human Rights Commission indicates that pay and the quality of apprenticeships are inextricably linked.

Traditionally male apprenticeships such as engineering and construction have better wages, more classroom time, and more on the job training than traditionally female apprenticeships, such as hairdressing and childcare positions.

The very best apprenticeships are doing what they can to combat this, but this kind of quality should be standard practice, not a luxury for the lucky ones.

The low wages paid to apprentices stack up problems in other areas of their lives too.

They have little disposable income and let’s not forget that many have to pay to travel to work or to college.

We’ve heard stories of apprentices who have to pay almost £10 a-day to travel to work while on the apprentice minimum wage.

We’ve heard stories where apprentices are only paid for the four days they are in work, but not for their study day in college. How can anyone expect to live a decent life on such a low income?

We need more than just naming and shaming.

We need a clampdown on those who are choosing to exploit hardworking young people trying to get their foot on the career ladder.

We need to raise the esteem of those choosing their own vocational path into adulthood. We need to view apprenticeships with the same respect that other educational choices receive.

We need to make sure that all young people are aware of all the choices they have on offer to them. And we need these things now. Apprentices must have a voice. And we will make sure they are heard.

National Apprenticeship Week supplement
National Apprenticeship Week supplement

Helping apprenticeships achieve their full potential

The government is pushing hard on promoting apprenticeships, but five key areas still need to be looked at, including employer engagement and maths and English, explains David Russell, chief executive of the Education & Training Foundation.

I have been heavily involved in shaping national apprenticeships policy over much of the last five years. But the view from Whitehall is always a partial one, in many senses of the word.

That’s why, in my first month as chief executive of the Education and Training Foundation, I have been visiting providers, talking to learners, and hearing what employers, apprentices and sector professionals across the country need.

Those of us who work in the sector need no convincing about the vital role apprenticeships play in building the skilled workforce employers need to reshape the economy and meet local and regional business needs.

We know apprenticeships can provide the highest quality learning experiences, and that there is an abundance of excellent practice out there, with providers working hand-in-hand with employers to deliver relevant, high level training with a clear line of sight to work.

But we should not make the mistake of assuming everyone outside the sector shares this view.

There is still a long way to go in terms of convincing young people, parents, and indeed schools, that vocational study is as valuable and rigorous a route into a career as university.

Not all training providers and employers are best placed or equipped to support apprentices or engage with the government’s planned reforms to the apprenticeship programme.

And for all the fanfare, the percentage of employers hiring apprentices in the UK is still disappointingly low, especially among small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs).

That’s why the foundation is commissioning a suite of programmes to support providers and employers in further developing their apprenticeship programmes, and ensuring that traineeships, which are often the route into apprenticeships, are rigorous programmes which increase employability of young people and promote to employers the value of learning in a working context.

In November, we commissioned two of the sector membership bodies which shape our board — the Association of Colleges and the Association of Employment and Learning Providers — to ask providers what they needed to help them, and their apprentices, achieve their full potential.

Their members told us they need help in five key areas — engaging employers, especially SMEs; communicating the benefits of maths and English provision to learners and employers; embedding maths and English into apprenticeships; developing staff and their capacity; and ensuring that the apprenticeship provision is tailored to suit employer needs.

In response, we have launched our apprenticeship support programme. It will have two phases.

The first, which launches this month and runs until December, will focus on engaging and involving employers, especially SMEs; meeting the needs of the labour market, locally, nationally, or for a specific or emerging sector; and preparing for the design of apprenticeships in the future.

The second, which runs from January to July next year, will embed and contextualise level two maths and English, develop new approaches to teaching, learning and assessment, and adapt and develop existing apprenticeship delivery to fit the new standards being delivered by the government’s trailblazer pilots.

Just like apprentices, professionals in our sector want their learning to be relevant, in the context of their work, and provided by experts. So models to support these approaches will be at the heart of our programme.

We will also be supporting and managing a series of provider-led action research projects. The learning from these will be used to enable all types of providers to learn from, adopt and embed effective practice.

I want this programme to equip and enable sector professionals with the confidence and professionalism to encourage employers to expand their involvement with apprenticeships.

I also want us to help employers evolve from being intelligent customers to informed collaborators, ensuring apprenticeships bring the benefits to the economy we know they can.

National Apprenticeship Week supplement
National Apprenticeship Week supplement

Apprenticeships: matching supply and demand

It was recently reported that apprenticeship providers have under-delivered on their allocated number of funded apprenticeships for 16 to 18-year-olds in their August 2012 allocations.

Education Funding Agency figures show that 769 colleges and training providers were going to be funded around £827m for 16 to 18 apprenticeships, but 524 providers had under-delivered by a total of £241m, potentially impacting on the future allocations that these centres will receive.

So what are the reasons behind this?

Some have pointed towards increased competition from 19+ applicants to get onto apprenticeship programmes. Others have speculated that it could be due to the requirement for increased employer contributions, putting employers off taking on young apprentices. It also begs the question — could the situation be indicative of problems with forthcoming apprenticeship reform?

Whatever the reasons, the providers who’ve under delivered will potentially be in line for a reduction in their young people’s apprenticeship funding the following year which may affect their capacity to deliver apprenticeships to younger learners.

At NCFE, we’re keen to increase both the appetite of providers to deliver apprenticeships and the appetite of businesses to take apprentices on.

The quarterly apprenticeship Index produced by the National Apprenticeship Service (NAS) this month, shows that there has been a phenomenal increase in online applications for apprenticeship vacancies between August and October 2013, leaping by 43 per cent.

Each online position is attracting an average of 12 applications, demonstrating that demand is significantly outstripping supply.

It is clear that we need to capitalise on the evident enthusiasm of these young people and encourage employees to see the long-term benefits of hiring apprentices to help grow their businesses.

Apprenticeships can go a long way to helping education meet the skills needs of the economy, uniting the worlds of learning and work. Forecasts suggest that apprentices could add up to £3.4bn a-year in economic gains, holding the key to a highly skilled workforce that can compete and thrive on a global scale.

Prime Minister David Cameron has said that he wants apprenticeships to be seen as a ‘first class career move’, while Skills Minister Matthew Hancock recently highlighted research which reveals that one-in-five employers have former apprentices working in senior positions.

Yes, apprenticeships are high on the government agenda, and they’re a top priority for us at NCFE too.

According to the NAS index, the greatest numbers of both applications and vacancies were in the business, administration and law sector and it’s with this high demand in mind that NCFE offers a range of apprenticeships in this area.

Our apprenticeships also span popular sectors including education and training, health, public services and care, leisure, travel and tourism and retail and commercial enterprise. Alongside our qualifications, we offer a range of free apprenticeship resources designed to support both the tutor and the learner with independent learning and cost effective delivery. They offer essential knowledge and activities in a flexible format to help consolidate learning and practice.

We understand the challenges that come with apprenticeship delivery and we’re keen to make providers’ lives easier while also helping learners to achieve their ambitions.

We’re greatly encouraged by the renewed interest of young people in apprenticeships but we all need to work together — awarding organisations, independent training providers, colleges and employers alike — to ensure that their interest does not go unrewarded.

Together, we can help them find their strengths, utilise their skills and contribute in a meaningful way in the labour market.

David Grailey is CEO of NCFE.

National Apprenticeship Week supplement
National Apprenticeship Week supplement

A view from the US on England’s apprenticeships, via Switzerland and Germany

Bob Schwartz, professor of practice in educational policy and administration at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, was appointed to Pearson’s qualifications expert panel earlier this year. He has studied vocational training around the world and FE Week reporter Paul Offord spoke to him to find out what he thinks England can learn from other countries.

Many people think Switzerland has the best apprenticeship system. Why is this?

It’s the best I’ve seen. I think it has a lot of assets and strengths that we can learn from.

I have looked over the last four or five years at what the strongest vocational systems are in the world and have had the opportunity to spend time looking at the systems in Singapore, Denmark, Germany, Switzerland and a little bit of the UK.

The Swiss system is, for me at least, the kind of international benchmark.

Importantly, 70 per cent of kids are in the vocational system. This is a mainstream system, serving most kids. We have a saying in the US  that goes: “Vocational education is a wonderful thing — for other people’s children.”

That is wrong…but when you get to a system that’s serving most young people…well, it makes a difference.

Two thirds of the 70 per cent are in the dual system, which means they are learning in the workplace typically for three or three-and-a-half days a-week. For the other day-and-a-half they are in an aligned academic programme. Programmes are typically three years in duration, but some are four.

Essentially employer associations in each sector take the lead role in shaping the standards. They decide what students need to know and need to do.

The payment of wages to apprentices is not subsidised directly by the government. There’s lots of indirect support in terms of infrastructure, but cost/benefit analyses show employers that the gains in bottom-line productivity at the end of a three or four year apprenticeship more than offset the costs in wages.

The system has also invested pretty heavily in early and good quality career guidance, to guide young people onto the right courses for them. They take that seriously because they know that, at 15 kids are going to make some important choices.

Others view the German apprenticeship system as the benchmark. How does that compare to the Swiss system?

We can obviously learn a lot from both the German and the Swiss systems.

However, I think for the US and UK at least, it is better to look to the Swiss system, because their labour market is more similar to ours. It is more open and less regulated than in Germany.

There is more flexibility with the Swiss system, where moving from the academic world to vocational training and back to academia for example is easier.

The German system is certainly trying to move in this direction, but the Swiss have really worked hard over the last 15 to 20 years to build pathways between the two sides.

It means kids get the message that there are lots of options open to them. They are not dead-ended.

It is very common in Switzerland to find people in very senior positions in business and government and education that had started their careers on the vocational side and managed to go on to academic careers.

Should we seek to copy elements of the Swiss and German system in England?

Obviously, systems like the Swiss or the German ones are deeply embedded in their own cultures, their own political history. It’s very easy I think for folks in the US or the UK to say: “That’s great. It works for them, but there’s really nothing we can learn from that.”

But it’s really short-sighted to behave as if we can’t figure out some way to take on board some of the underlying principles of these systems.

There are other systems that have figured out how to do this much better than we have, and we’ve got to have an obligation to see if we can figure out an adaptation that will work in our setting.

Many smaller firms in this country worry about investing in apprentices, but then losing them to other firms after they qualify. Is this a problem in Switzerland?

You can’t address the poaching fear unless you can really get a broad base of employers in your sector to think sectorally.

The system is organised by sectors in Switzerland. The great virtue of that is employers will buy into a qualification system because it’s good for their industry not just themselves.

Swiss employers worry less about holding on to people and often you will hear a Swiss employer say that they actually encourage people, when they complete, to get some experience of another firm.

The government tried to introduce loans for 24+ apprenticeships in this country, but it didn’t work. Do you think a loans system could work, or would it be better for apprenticeships to be funded by the government and employers rather than learners themselves?

Apprentices shouldn’t need to borrow money. They should be earning.

And should employers bear at least some of the cost of training?

Yes. In the Swiss system, the state pays the cost of the provider portion of the training, and it’s the companies that pay for their part of the [work-based] training.

The government in this country plans to give funding directly to employers, who will then pay providers and have more influence over the classroom-based training their apprentices receive. Do you think this will work?

It’s absolutely critical to have employers buy-in [to apprenticeships], but I worry a little bit about the risk of handing so much of the system over to individual employers, particularly if it’s individual employers rather than employer associations that are driving it.

There is also a danger that training can become too firm-specific. In the Swiss system, there are actually three different settings where kids get education, if you will. There is the workplace, there’s the classroom, but there is also a chunk of time that is spent on understanding the [wider] industry.

I would also be a little sceptical about giving too much control to the market.

If you are not careful and you don’t have sufficient regulation, you will wind up with lots of providers who may not really have the capacity to do high-quality training, and if you create an environment in which cost becomes the principal criteria for choosing a provider, whoever is paying, that can be a problem.

Another important point is whether the unions or employer associations are at the table with employers to strike a balance between the needs of firms and apprentices.

My worry about the apprenticeship proposals here in the UK is who will moderate the natural tendency of the employer to mainly be concerned about solving their immediate firm’s problems rather than thinking more broadly [in apprentices’ interests]?

Have you looked into how different systems avoid having too many apprenticeships in a particular discipline — like possibly too many hairdressers, for instance?

The Dutch and the Swiss both have apprenticeship barometers, where you can actually see the numbers of apprenticeships in each area. It’s a nice way, on a quarterly basis at least, of monitoring supply and demand.

I was in Australia recently where there was a kind of running joke that Victoria, which is the state where there was least regulation, had a huge over-supply of personal trainers.

What I’m driving at is that you want to make sure that you are monitoring demand and not overproducing people for different areas of employment.

Beauticians are a fairly classic category where typically…a lot of countries are ending up producing many more people than there are available jobs.

You need to figure out how to strike a balance between student interest and market demand. Smart countries really manage this process. They will actually control the supply to make sure it doesn’t get way in excess of demand.

You can adjust funding to create financial incentives to develop a training programme to meet the demand [of employers].

What advice would you give to apprenticeship policy-makers in this country?

This government is obviously more interested in strengthening the role of employers and consumer choice and moving away from what I think it would view as an over-regulated system. It’s part of a general Conservative Party orientation.

But the strongest systems don’t think only of employers — they think of employee organisations as well.

How can we raise the profile of apprenticeships in the UK to the same level they enjoy in Switzerland?

Apprenticeships in the UK and US are seen — for understandable historical reasons — principally as appropriate training for people in the traditional trades and crafts. People immediately think of electricians, carpenters and plumbers.

In countries with a strong youth apprenticeship tradition apprenticeships cover a much wider range of occupations.

Most apprentices, if you look at the distribution in Switzerland, work in the commercial sector — meaning banking and insurance — and other business-related sectors. That makes a difference.

National Apprenticeship Week supplement
National Apprenticeship Week supplement