Apprenticeship inquiry calls for evidence

The Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) Select Committee is calling for evidence ahead of an inquiry into apprenticeships.

Written evidence can be submitted to the Committee up until February 03, 2012, using the email address biscommem@parliament.uk.

The terms of reference, used to shape the inquiry in the new year, are listed below:


* How successful has the National Apprenticeship Service been since it was created in April 2009? Has it helped bridge the gap between the two funding Departments? (BIS and Department for Education)

* Is the extra funding promised by the Coalition Government necessary for apprenticeships? How can this funding best be spent?

* Are apprenticeships of a high enough quality to benefit apprentices and their employers? Should there be more Level 3 apprenticeships?

* Apprenticeship bonuses – how should they function? Will they encourage the involvement of more small and medium sized businesses to take on apprentices? If not what will?

* Is the current funding arrangement for training of apprentices of 100% for 16-18 year olds and 50% for 19-24 year olds appropriate?

The preliminary terms of reference were heard by the Committee on Tuesday morning.

Adrian Bailey MP, chairman of the committee, said the inquiry will start in February and address a number of issues surrounding apprenticeships, including quality, control, and employer contributions.

It comes following an announcement by skills minister John Hayes earlier this week that apprenticeships for 16 to 18-year-olds must be completed over at least 12 months, as well as strict new measures on quality.

When asked about who should be responsible for monitoring quality, Mr Bailey said: “I think we might incorporate that into Select Committee consideration.”

Mr Bailey announced the enquiry at the ‘Real or Rebrand?’ apprenticeships debate organised by FE Week at the House of Commons in November.

Speaking at the event, Mr Bailey said: “I’m sure there are an enormous number of people in this room today who would want to submit evidence to that enquiry.

“So please look out for that and submit it, but don’t feel constrained about the committee’s timetable – I’m very happy to receive your submissions at any time on issues surrounding apprenticeships.”

Mr Bailey also attended the debate on apprenticeships held at the House of Commons last  Monday, where Mr Hayes announced the minimum duration for all apprentices aged under-19.

Mr Bailey said: “The government is providing a considerable sum of money ostensibly for apprenticeships.

“A substantial proportion of that money is not providing apprenticeships as we understand them, but going to general training, which may itself be very good, but a lot of it might actually be done by a company as a whole.

“The government needs to review that, assess the financial implications of it and look to distribute some of that money in a way which I think is more effective.”

Mr Bailey said the problems surrounding apprenticeships were “highly dangerous” for the coalition government, and could potentially “blow up in their face.”

“What we need is real apprenticeships, and an adequate level of funding to ensure that they are meaningful and effective,” Mr Bailey said.

“The government should concentrate less on numbers and more on appropriateness of the course and validity.”

Apprenticeship quality tackled

A shake-up of apprenticeships will see all programmes for 16 to 18 year-olds take place for at least a year.

Skills minister John Hayes revealed the new measure, which comes into place from August 2012, during a debate on apprenticeships at the House of Commons on Monday.

He also revealed that delivery models must include a “rigorous” amount of job-relevant learning and training.

The National Apprenticeship Service (NAS) will now look at extending the new minimum length of delivery to older learners and take action to improve any frameworks failing to deliver new and relevant skills.

“If the standards are sufficiently stretching and the expectations of competence high, I believe that a course should naturally extend over at least 12 months,” Mr Hayes said.

“That will be the expectation first for 16 to 18 year-old apprentices from August 2012, as new contracts to training providers are issued.”

However, Gordon Marsden, shadow minister for further education, skills and lifelong learning, said Mr Hayes needed to do more to help apprentices of all ages.

“The minister’s announcement will do nothing immediately to address the concerns about the quality and progression of apprenticeships for those in the crucial age range between 19 and 24,” said Mr Marsden.

“After all, their futures are just as important to the economy and jobs as those in the younger range.

“We will therefore be pressing ministers to ensure that apprenticeship standards and quality are maintained for all ages.”

News on the new method has sparked a wide-reaching debate from across the sector.

Martin Doel, chief executive of the Association of Colleges, said the minimum delivery length is “sensible” and could also extend to adult apprentices.

He said: “We have been discussing this requirement with Government over the past weeks and agree that 12 months represent a sensible minimum period for the necessary learning, reflection and embedding within an apprenticeship for a young person.

“The situation for an older apprentice, who may already have the required functional Maths and English skills and have experience in the relevant sector, is more nuanced, but even here we think it reasonable that there be a presumed minimum duration of 12 months from which special dispensation should be sought on a case by case basis.”

Mr Doel added: “Taken together, we think that these changes will reinforce the apprenticeship ‘brand’ and will help support its continued sustainable growth as a quality offer to employers and employees of whatever age.”

However, the 157 Group has stressed that longer apprenticeships do not necessarily equate to a better quality of training for the learner.

“Focus should remain on the criteria around teaching and learning and the strength of the framework and its content rather than the length of delivery,” a spokesperson said.

“However, we recognise that there has previously been an issue around short apprenticeships which have not led to positive outcomes.”

Graham Hoyle, chief executive of the Association of Employment and Learning Providers, said  he would be “concerned” if the minimum duration was applied to older employees.

“We’re rather against formal time serving periods, because that was something for the past which didn’t take into account the individual’s capacity to learn and move forward,” Mr Hoyle said.

“But with 16 to 18 year-olds, clearly the vast majority of them need a minimum period to clear a full framework.”

Mr Hoyle added: “We will be slightly more concerned if they put minimum levels in for older workers, who bring in their own experence and skills with them.

“They need less time to actually complete a full framework – but that’s not what has happened.”

A spokesperson from the UK Commission of Employment and Skills (UKCES) said focusing on the length of the apprenticeship “is only one half of the story”.

She added: “The content and quality of the learning experience delivered through apprenticeships is also important, and we believe that means ensuring that employers have greater ownership of the content and development of apprenticeships.”

The issue on quality was also covered by Mr Hayes during the parliamentary debate, where he announced plans for a crackdown by the NAS.

Mr Hayes said: “I have asked the NAS to work with the Alliance of Sector Skills Councils to tighten guidance for those who are developing apprenticeship frameworks, to ensure that expectations on national standards and rigour are met, and to take action where frameworks are insufficiently stretching.

“In the current economic times, we must be more vigilant than ever to ensure that funding delivers value and is properly spent.”

The minister said the Skills Funding Agency (SFA) will tighten contracts with colleges and training providers in order to withdraw funding where quality standards are not being met.

Mr Hayes said: “Our resolve is to ensure that every penny of public money delivers high-quality apprenticeships and to continue to weed out failure and weakness wherever they are found.

“I will make the evidence available in my submissions to that inquiry, giving a clear timetable of action and details of the steps we intend to take to root out poor provision.”

The announcements have come off the back of a number of stories in FE Week surrounding the concerns of short apprenticeships.

A debate was also hosted in the House of Commons on the matter, which was brought up by Mr Marsden in his response on Monday.

“There is a lively and on-going debate about the nature of apprenticeships – an issue to which the Government have rapidly been forced to turn because of some of the disquiet in recent months,” Mr Marsden said.

“That was apparent from a meeting in this House organised recently by FE Week, when more than 80 apprenticeship providers came to the Commons to voice their views and concerns about quality and overstretch in apprenticeships, which is something that we have also articulated via our parliamentary questions.”

All 16-18 apprenticeships to last at least one year

All apprenticeships for 16 to 18 year-olds must last at least a year, Skills Minister John Hayes MP will announce in the House of Commons today.

Mr Hayes is expected to say that all new apprenticehips must take place for a minimum of 12 months from August 2012, and include a ‘rigorous’ amount of job-relevant learning and training.

The National Apprenticeship Service (NAS), among a number of new measures confirmed by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS), will look at extending the new length of delivery to older learners, and take action to improve any apprenticeship frameworks failing to deliver new and relevant skills.

The NAS will also work in partnership with the Skills Funding Agency (SFA) to clampdowm on poor use of provision.

New measures include withdrawing public funding from training providers who fail to meet quality standards.

The announcement follows a rise in apprenticeships being delivered in as little as 12 weeks, offering very little training or new job prospects for young people.

(You can watch the announcement by John Hayes MP on Parliament TV from 3:30pm)

UPDATE: For more on this story click here

The BIS Statement reads:

“HAYES TAKES ACTION TO STRENGTHEN APPRENTICESHIPS

On Monday Skills Minister John Hayes will be taking part in an Apprenticeship Debate. As part of this he is expected to announce tough new measures to help assure that every apprenticeship delivers world class training for learners and businesses, and that all apprenticeships for 16-18 year olds last for at least twelve months.  

These measures include:

Apprenticeships must entail a rigorous period of job-relevant learning, and the practice of new skills, normally extending over at least 12 months.   From August 2012, all apprenticeships for 16-18 year olds must last for at least 12 months. The National Apprenticeship Service will look at whether this requirement should extend to older apprentices, taking account they will often start from a higher base. Every apprenticeship will deliver significant new learning – and never be about the accreditation of existing knowledge and experience.

Tighter guidance for those developing apprenticeship frameworks will ensure national quality standards are always met.  The National Apprenticeship Service (NAS) will take action to improve any frameworks that are not delivering relevant and challenging new skills.

NAS will work with the Skills Funding Agency to crack down on poor provision and where there is evidence public money is being over-claimed. In cases where training fails to meet required quality standards, contracts will be tightened to allow for public funding to be immediately withdrawn from training providers.

Business Secretary Vince Cable said: “The apprenticeships programme is a success story, with record numbers of learners starting an apprenticeship
this year.

“The measures announced today will ensure that we cut no corners on quality. All apprenticeships will be consistently delivered to a high standard, we will crack down on poor provision and ultimately withdraw funds from those providers that can not improve.”

Skills Minister John Hayes said:

“Putting apprenticeships back at the heart of our education and skills system is one of the Government’s proudest achievements, with record investment paying dividends for businesses and trainees.  With more employers and more apprentices involved in the programme than ever before, we will continue to raise standards and ensure the high quality of every apprenticeship.  My resolve is to ensure every penny of public money delivers high quality training, and continue to weed out failure and fraud wherever it is found to exist.”

Apprenticeships deliver strong benefits for apprentices, employers and the wider economy. Around 450,000 new apprentices started last year, and over 50,000 workplaces took on apprentices for the first time.

ADDITIONAL BACKGROUND

In today’s debate in the House of Commons John Hayes announced a number of new measures to boost the quality of apprenticeship  provision. He set out new steps to assure that every apprenticeship will deliver world class training for learners and businesses, normally extending for at least twelve months. For those aged 16-18, this period will become a minimum in all cases from August 2012, as new contracts are issued. 

The National Apprenticeship Service will also assess the implications of extending the above requirement to other ages.  If standards are sufficiently stretching all apprenticeships will naturally extend over 12 months.  This is in line with the requirement for every apprentice not already qualified to this level to receive training in English and Maths to the level of a good GCSE.

In November the Government set out its priorities for the next phase of the Apprenticeships programme, including financial incentives for smaller firms to take on their first apprentices, the creation of some 19,000 degree level apprenticeships through the Higher Apprenticeships Fund, and a new £250m fund to give employers more control over how publicly funded training is delivered. For more info see the BIS website

The apprenticeships budget from 2011/12 is £1.4bn

For the latest apprenticeship opportunities visit www.apprenticeships.org.uk

Related articles in FE Week (incl. info graphic ~ 11mb):

Government figures show adult apprenticeships more than tripled

Hundreds of 12 week apprenticeships advertised on NAS website are ‘under review’

Short 12 week apprenticeships are off the menu

Remind me again why I pay the training budget of a $422bn company?

City and Guilds allocated more than £8m for 25,000 Asda Apprentices

Morrisons, Elmfied and the over 25 Apprentices

12 week apprenticeships still advertised

Will 12 week apprentices ever be derailed?

Latest apprenticeship policy slammed

NAS concerned about quality following rapid apprenticeship expansion

Concern at 12 week apprenticeships

External related links:

Guardian: Jobs rebranded as apprenticeships, government report warns

Guardian: Apprenticeship figures are not what they seem

Telegraph: Apprenticeships double but concerns over ‘chasing targets’

Mail on Sunday: The great apprentice racket: Some jobs fall short of skills as firms collect millions

Guardian: Big increase in apprenticeships due to ‘striking rise’ in trainees over 25

BBC Radio 4 In Business programme on supermarket apprentices

SFA calls for reduction in apprentices aged 25 and over

The recruitment of new apprentices aged 25 and above is being actively discouraged in a new funding document published by the Skills Funding Agency.

The report, published by the Skills Funding Agency (SFA) on Friday, states: “Providers should address the needs of younger learners, those with lower skills and those who are unemployed.

“Within the Adult Apprenticeships allocation for example, we expect a great focus on the recruitment of young people aged 19 to 24 rather than maintenance of current regime levels for those aged over 25.”

The ‘Allocations Methodology for the Initial Funding Statement for the Adult Skills Budget for the 2012/13 Contracting Year’, is the first time the SFA has said it not only wants to try and stop the growth in new apprentices aged 25 and above, but reduce recruitment levels as well during the next two years.

The SFA stressed its desire for growth in apprentices aged 19 to 24 in a previous report, titled ‘Outcome of Performance Management at Quarter 3 2011’.

The document states: “We have not been able to agree at this time any additional funding for new 25+ Apprenticeship starts.

“Although we are aware that freedoms and flexibilities allow providers to move money within their Adult Skills Budget, we expect the providers who are awarded growth to spend this as per the business cases submitted with the account teams. We want the sector to continue to focus on growth for those aged 19-24.”

FE Week has contacted the Skills Funding Agency for more information.

Jobs saved as National Extension College sold

An arm of the crisis hit Learning and Skills Network (LSN) has been sold.

Ian Oakley-Smith, David Hurst and Karen Dukes of PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC), the administrators of LSN, have revealed this afternoon that National Extension College (NEC) has been bought by the Open School Trust.

As previously revealed by FE Week, the LSN went into administration last month after its turnover dipped by £29 million in two years. It was also handling a pension liability of some £8 million.

The move saves 26 members of staff, who will transfer to the Trust, which has vowed to continue the NEC in the traditions of its founder Michael Young.

However, at this time, little information appears to be available on the Trust.

Mr Oakley-Smith, joint administrator and director at PwC, said: “We are pleased that a charity with such great lineage has gone to a buyer who both understands its ethos and is able to secure its long term future.

“The sale enables the transfer of 26 members of staff within the NEC, will allow existing students to complete their courses and will preserve future employment opportunities in the area for what we hope will be many years.”

Skills are the key at sustainable employment conference

Unemployment has returned to politics with a vengeance. The number of young people not in employment, education or training continues to rise across the country, fuelling concerns of a ‘lost generation’ that will impact the future growth of the economy. The opportunities for adults with minimal qualifications is similarly bleak.

The solution is to implement a highly efficient and supportive skills system. Or at least it should be, according to many of the speakers who headlined the ‘Sustainable Employment through Skills’ Conference, held at the America Square Conference Centre on December 14.

The event, organised by the Association of Employment and Learning Providers (AELP) and Centre for Economic & Social Inclusion, attracted more than 100 attendees hoping to find a balance between the needs of employers, training providers and the public.

Lord Victor Adebowale, Chief Executive of Turning Point and UKCES Commissioner, was quick to ignite the morning session with a passionate presentation about the impact of skills on employment prospects.

Lord Adebowale said: “I’ve seen the same problems come round time and time again.

“Quite frankly they get exploited or left behind – we know that.”

“The solutions lie in understanding the question of skills, and how skills are the fuel for moving people out of poverty, into work and moving the economy into growth.”

Lord Adebowale emphasised the dwindling prospects of people with low skills, and said that those with higher level qualifications were having to compete increasingly for elementary jobs.

“People with low skills are less likely to be employed. Quite frankly they get exploited or left behind – we know that.

“The lower the qualification, the less chance of employment.”

Lord Adebowale added: “People with higher level skills are taking elementary jobs which means fewer opportunities for unemployed people.

“Skills development does work, but the impact is seen over the long term. Training should be attached to the needs of the individual, it should meet employer needs and include an opportunity to put skills into practise.”

Tony Wilson, Director of Policy and Communications at the Centre for Economic and Social Inclusion opened the conference, but could offer delegates little hope.

“It’s been another pretty poor month in the labour market, and in the labour market statistics,” Mr Wilson said.

“Employment broadly flat, or slightly down, unemployment is up from last month, and another large rise in youth unemployment.”

Alan Cave, Delivery Directorate at the Department for Work and Pensions, used the morning session to remind delegates about the development of the Work Programme, and its effect both on the unemployed and those in need of skills.

“The design of the work programme is already showing signs of driving a better integration, and an easier integration between the world of employment support and the world of skills; bringing those together in a way that we have always wanted to but often found it quite difficult – particularly in government.”

The Work Programme is the government’s flagship scheme for supporting the most vulnerable people into work, as well as helping to remove people from benefit dependency.

“The skills story is a more subtle one and a more complex one than just formal qualifications”

“To give you a notion of its scale, during the lifetime of the programme, which is 5-7 years, we now project that over 3 million people, 3.2 million people actually will pass through the programme,” Mr Cave said.

“We expect over 1.5 million people to be on the programme at its peak period and in this first year, so it started in June and up until the end of March, we now quite firmly project that over 650,000 claimants will have started on the Work Programme.”

Mr Cave explained the payment by outcomes approach adopted by the Work Programme, and how it has stimulated innovation in the way providers operate.

“We pay for outcomes, but we give absolutely minimum prescription, so I do believe we’ve kept to our word on that in terms of what we as a contracting commissioning authority tell providers they must do,” Mr Cave said.

“In effect, they are free to operate, to learn, to innovate, and to do anything that gets our people back into work – and into sustained work.”

Mr Cave emphasised, just as Lord Adebowale did, that young people with low qualifications are at a significant labour market disadvantage.

“The skills story is a more subtle one and a more complex one than just formal qualifications,” Mr Cave said.

“We know there’s a big story there about soft skills, the skills employers really value and often make the difference between employing someone and not employing someone, or certainly giving people advancement.”

The conference later held a plenary session with Dr Adam Marshall, Director of Policy and External Affairs at the British Chambers of Commerce, Neil Cranberry, Director for Employment Affairs at the Confederation of British Industry (CBI), and Moira McKerracher, Assistant Director at the UK Commission for Employment and Skills.

Mr Cranberry spoke, among other issues, about the importance of partnerships between educational institutions and businesses.

The presentation touched upon the vital role of careers advice, a debate increasingly voiced in the run up to the launch of the National Careers Service.

“Careers advice was great when you came out of the school gate at 16 or younger, in earlier years, and it was the choice of the factory department store, or the other factory,” Mr Cranberry said.

“Well that’s not the way the world is.”

Mr Cranberry added: “We need to get early messaging in about what business needs, and we need more from the Department for Education (DfE) to do that.”

The afternoon hosted a series of simultaneous breakout sessions and a panel discussion featuring Graham Hoyle OBE, Chief Executive of the Association of Employment and Learning Providers, and Lesley Davies, Assistant Chief Executive and Director of Policy at the Association of Colleges (AoC).

The conference later closed with a final plenary, titled ‘Skills in the Work Programme: What will success look like?’ with Mr Hoyle and John Hayes MP, Minister of State for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning.

The ‘Sustainable Employment through Skills’ conference showed that tackling unemployment is a task not only for FE colleges, but training providers, employers and government agencies as well.

While there is plenty of support for better engagement and involvement from employers, good intentions will only be proven, as always, by good action.

Youth unemployment at new record high

Figures released this morning show UK youth unemployment is at the highest level since 1992 – just one month after the previous record was set.

The Office for National Statistics (ONS) has revealed there were 1.03 million unemployed 16 to 24 year olds in the three months to October 2011, which is up 54,000 from the three months to July 2011.

The ONS said: “The unemployment rate for 16 to 24 year olds was 22 per cent of the economically active population for the age group in the quarter, up 1.2 percentage points from the previous quarter.”

Meanwhile, the number of unemployed 16 to 17 year olds increased by 8,000 on the quarter to reach 211,000 and the number of unemployed 18 to 24 year olds rose by 46,000 on the quarter to reach 815,000.

People in full-time education are included in the youth unemployment estimates, if they have been looking for work within the last four weeks and are available to start work within the next two weeks.

However, even excluding people in full-time education, the figure still increased.

ONS said: “There were 730,000 unemployed 16 to 24 year olds in the three months to October 2011, up 21,000 from the three months to July 2011.

“The unemployment rate for 16 to 24 year olds not in full-time education was 20.7 per cent of the economically active population, up 0.8 percentage points from the three months to July 2011.”

What do you think? What do you think can be done to stop rising youth unemployment? We want to hear your thoughts so let FE Week know by commenting below or e-mailing news@feweek.co.uk

NAO report critical of BIS and SFA bureaucracy reform

Government efforts to reduce bureaucracy in further education (FE) lack clarity and the complete picture, according to a report released today.

Issued by the National Audit Office (NAO), ‘Reducing bureaucracy in further education in England’ is critical of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) and Skills Funding Agency (SFA) approach to reform.

It highlights a lack of indication of how much the new system should cost, the impact of the reductions proposed and of the changes made by others.

Although admitting that providers welcome changes, the NAO say they “do not have confidence the simplification of the system of administration will be sustained”.

It also reveals the cost of bureaucracy in FE is around £180 million a year to colleges – rising to £250 million including other providers – for administration of funding, qualification and assurance systems, equating to £150 per student.

BIS and SFA have the ambition to make changes to simplify the system, but they must get to grips with the issues we have raised in order to achieve value for money and prevent colleges being embroiled in red tape.”

The NAO recognises the work being undertaken by BIS and the SFA to pursue initiatives to simplify these processes, but declares they are not “well coordinated” and “they do not know the scale of the problem faced” by FE colleges and providers.

Therefore, BIS and SFA, say the NAO, should set “a clear, ambitious target for the scale of the burden reduction they are seeking” to provide more impetus to change.

Amyas Morse, head of the NAO, said: “Our estimates show that substantial savings can be made by reducing bureaucracy in FE and demonstrate the need for focused and systematic management of these costs to drive sustained improvements in efficiency.

“BIS and SFA have the ambition to make changes to simplify the system, but they must get to grips with the issues we have raised in order to achieve value for money and prevent colleges being embroiled in red tape.”

Although welcoming the report, the SFA is on the defensive, saying they “take a different view” on the approach used by the NAO.

A statement from the Agency said: “FE providers have been given almost complete freedom to respond to the demands of employers, communities and learners.

“This inevitably creates opportunities to reduce burdens, but these are a result of policy changes rather than their driver, as the NAO approach seems to presume.

“The report also has not sought to distinguish between administrative requirements essential for good stewardship of public money and those that may be unnecessary.

“Finally, while we agree we must ensure no unnecessary burdens remain as we undertake this radical change, the estimates made by the NAO of the potential burden cost savings are at best speculative as they are not grounded in sufficiently robust evidence to be reliable.”

FE and Skills Minister John Hayes said the government will “fast-track” further work to measure the impact of reforms on colleges.

He added: “This report illustrates the considerable progress the government has already made in reducing bureaucracy in FE, identifies the scale of the challenge we inherited and highlights the urgency of our task.

“We are moving at pace to cut red tape and empower the sector to respond more flexibly to the needs of learners and businesses, and many of these reforms have been effective since the NAO undertook its research earlier this year.”

Martin Doel, Association of Colleges chief executive, said there are three main causes for “excessive bureaucracy” in FE.

He described them as “multiple agencies and departments overseeing the sector’s work, rapid policy changes which have led to the layering of incremental regulation and an inherent complexity” driven by wide range of courses, providers and students.

However, Mr Doel added: “While applauding the NAO’s sentiment we must at the same time reflect the healthy scepticism of our members, who have witnessed the unveiling of a number of bureaucracy-busting initiatives since incorporation that have sadly withered on the vine.

“We should also be wary of cuts in front-line funding that are presented as efforts to reduce red tape.

“We sincerely hope that this Government’s strong emphasis on institutional autonomy will ensure that reforms of funding, qualification and assurance systems lead to sustainable cost-savings for colleges and UK plc, while at the same time continuing to support high quality college courses and ensuring the most effective and responsible stewardship of the public purse.”

(Read our interview with Chris Shapcott, National Audit Office director of regulatory reform, here)

Chris Shapcott (NAO) asks for “more detailed and clearer picture” of reforms

We spoke to Chris Shapcott, National Audit Office director of regulatory reform, about the NAO report titled ‘Reducing bureaucracy in further education in England’ published today.

Q) Were these numbers what you expected?

In a way, we produced the report because we didn’t know what to expect! That in a way was the point. In the report we do mention that where was some work done a few years ago, by the Information Authority in 2008  – they had a figure of about £140  million. So in that sense the £184, or £180 million for colleges was not that surprising. But really it’s unknown territory, so any figure is interesting.

We felt that because there wasn’t a good figure out there already, it was important to have a go and make a rough estimate. We’re pleased to see that the agency is now trying to do some more accurate figures themselves. It’ll be very interesting to see what they find out.

Q) A number of key burdens were highlighted by providers in the report. Which do you think are the most significant?

It’s the amount of information they need to get. The learner record for instance has got several hundred fields on it – so there’s a lot of stuff that they need to do.

One of the complications in this area is that they will need some of this information for their own purposes. If you’re a good educational institution, you’re going to be keeping a record of whether people are going to classes, what sort of qualifications they’re getting, what learning experiences they’re getting. The really difficult part of this area is to work out what it is the college needs to be a good educational institution, and then what exactly are they adding onto that to meet these government requirements.

Which  isn’t to say these extras are unnecessary, because clearly government is funding this, and government needs assurance that the money is being used properly and being used for the purpose for which it is provided. What we’re looking for, and what we’re recommending, is a more systematic way of working out how much of this extra information which is being asked for is really pulling it’s weight,  the value you’re getting from it, and what’s it costing you to provide.

It’s important to understand it’s not just a matter of asking for less – finding an easier way for colleges to provide what you’re already asking for maybe just as welcome.

Q) What about the issue of accountability? Is there a possibility that the Government’s drive for increased for simplification and reduced bureaucracy will go too far?

We have produced reports in the past which have been critical of problems in the sector. There was some big scandals about ten years ago for instance, and more recently the Public Accounts Committee has been emphasising the importance of accountability for public money.

So I’m 100% behind that – but it’s a matter of how you do it.

What we want is more scientific, analytical management for this to achieve their objectives.

Q) How difficult will it be to create that system, where you can give out those flexibilities but also ensure there is adequate monitoring and regulation? Is it even feasible?

Yes, clearly we think it’s feasible, or we wouldn’t be reporting on this. What we recognise is that they are doing a lot already, and in fact they’re really quite ambitious. What we’re suggesting is the ways in which they can get even more out of what they’re doing. Which in particular is by getting the information on what it’s really costing people, and what they’re getting for it – which will allow them to do things more efficiently.

The other thing that I think would help, would be a more detailed and clearer picture about what the destination of the journey is. We call it I think the final operating model in the report, but where do you want to get to? They know where they are, and they know a lot of things that they want to change – but where’s it going to end you up?

Q) There isn’t a lot of talk between agencies? Should they be more unified?

There is a lot of talking going on, but as we say in the report – we think they’re not making the most of the opportunity they have to work together. It is a difficult thing, because each department has it’s own responsibilities, and one department can’t tell another department what to do in its ‘patch’. But we think there’s more that could be done there.

Q) What was the reaction from the colleges which you visited in the report?

There was a recognition that there is a lot being done and there is an ambition there. The issue is because people have often been around for quite a long time, particularly the ones in the senior positions, they’ve seen a lot of things before, and so they need a lot of convincing that things are really going to stick. I think they welcome what was being done, they welcome the wish to do more, but there’s natural caution as well.

Q) Colleges said they thought they could reduce their costs by around half. However, the NAO suggested that a 25 per cent target was much more reasonable. How would this be achieved?

It’s things like simplifying the information they have to provide, and not having to provide it quite so often. All of that sort of thing.

The 25 per cent, we’re not saying we definitely  it will be 25 per cent, but 25 per cent is something that has been sought in other areas where people have been looking to make a big reduction. Our feeling is the very act of setting an ambitious target in itself is helpful, because it starts people thinking more radically than if you set a small target. They come up with more creative and novel solutions. It may well be at the end of the day they don’t get the 25% but 18%, but that’s still better than aiming for 10% and getting it.

Q) Response to the SFA comments?

These are all things we’ve addressed in the report, and we were aware of the SFA’s thoughts on this before we published, so if you look at the relevant bits you’ll see we’ve covered the bits they’ve dealt with.

We’re very happy with what we’re saying.

Q) What do you think is the key message  of the NAO report?

The value of measurement and the importance of having a clear view about the destination you’re aiming at. In this particular area, where there are so many people to coordinate, the importance of working hard at that as well.

(Read our news piece on the report here)